“There’s Too Much Apathy” - DC’s Mac N’ Toss Releases Debut Album, “What She Buried”
Extensive Interview ★ Kenzie Gay ★ @kenzwrites
“Find the right community and you’re set for life. It’s so hard to find the right part of the punk scene. We want to help foster that. That’s what that’s all about…” says Devon of DC-based riot band Mac N’ Toss about the community and camaraderie of DIY music scenes.
It’s been just under a year since our readers were last met with the fresh, heavy, genre-spanning sound of Mac N’ Toss. The band composed of bassist Mac, drummer Annie, and guitarist Devon has been seated on a wild ride since I last met up with them in the West side of Grand Rapids, Michigan. They’ve grown exponentially in these quick 11 months: winning awards, touring, and even perfecting their debut album: What She Buried. To prepare for the new record, I sat down with the trio at Hannah’s Coffeehouse in Rockford, Michigan — my hometown and a surprisingly solid spot to discuss things like iced cinnamon roll lattes, sexism in the music industry, Letterboxd entries, and more.
Mac N’ Toss via Lauren JaksonWhat have you been up to since we last connected at Kilroy’s Garage in Grand Rapids?
Devon: Oh my God (laughs)
Mac: Everything! We’ve been up to everything. Most notably, we organized a music festival in April during sexual assault awareness month to support victims of sexual violence. It began as a very small project and then it turned into this huge thing.
Devon: Yeah, there were like 17 artists.
Mac: And so many vendors, organizations, etc. We ended up in the Washington Post and multiple local newspapers.
Devon: And NPR!
Kenzie: Woah, that’s the real deal.
Mac: It was so much work but it’s probably been the highlight of our career so far. It sold out at around 500 tickets.
Devon: We planned on capping it around 250 but that clearly didn’t end up happening.
Mac: People really resonated with it. We’ve got folks reaching out about next year already.
Devon: Other than that, we’ve been busy with recording the album, releasing singles, and playing shows. We opened for a few super incredible bands.
Mac: There’s also a documentary being done on us. That’s been really cool.
Devon: That’s it (laughs)
You’re hitting the road with Gina Young this August. What are you looking forward to about the tour?
All: Hell yes we are (laughs)
Devon: I’m looking forward to So Called Straight Girl.
Mac: Gina found us by seeing our cover of So Called Straight Girl. We do a more metal-inspired rendition of it and she approached us wanting to re-record it with us!
Devon: We’re doing a live session with her in Philly. We’re SO excited for this Mac N’ Toss x Gina Young collab. I’m elated!
Kenzie: I’m elated for you
Devon: I’m also excited for California.
Mac: Yeah, I’ve never been to LA in my life.
Devon: (laughs) You’re gonna hate it.
Mac: Yep! Everyone’s performing, performing, performing! But anyway, we don’t need to give our opinion on every city ever. I’m excited to play!
Devon: Actually, yes. We’ll give our full, in depth review of every city ever (Everyone laughs). I’m really excited for these shows, though.
Mac, lead bass playing is arguably an anomaly in mainstream music. What led you to take this head-on as opposed to going with the grain and playing rhythm?
Mac: There are so many bassists that don’t play! They’ll just play random notes that don’t actually add to the texture of a song. As a 3 piece that wants to have a big sound, we all have to be really involved with our parts. There’s no part that’s just a backing track. I’ve always loved the bass and I’ve always gravitated towards music that has a heavier bass presence. That’s what I want to bring into the band. (pauses) We recently were told that we sound like a cross of Primus, Bikini Kill, and Bratmobile…we were ecstatic because that’s exactly what I’m going for.
Kenzie: Do you have any major bass influences?
Mac: Oh, absolutely. Flea from the Chili Peppers, Cliff from Metallica, and psychedelic funk in general. I started playing bass because of funk. It’s fun to bring some of those influences into Mac N’ Toss. I also love the bassist from Death. I don’t know his name, sorry. Ooh, Blind Melon, too!
In the 90s, Kathleen Hanna was notorious for sending women to the front of her shows with Bikini Kill and Le Tigre. At your own shows, you do something similar called a “girl mosh”. Is this your way of carrying the torch?
Devon: We knew of the concept but it really came about at our first technical show. This is before Annie joined the band. We saw a video afterwards of people at the show chanting ‘girl mosh’ while we were playing. We were like ‘girl mosh, Mac N’ Toss? That’s kinda cute’. It’s not because ‘oh, Kathleen Hanna said this’. I hate that mentality. But it is definitely something we noticed and found necessary. What Kathleen was feeling is what we’re still feeling today, especially as of late with people getting hurt at shows.
Kenzie: Oh, yeah. I almost broke my nose at an indie show once.
Devon: Yeah. There was this video recently from Utah of a trans woman on the edge of a mosh pit and someone kept pulling her in and they beat her. It was a hate crime disguised as moshing. It repulses me. Don’t use moshing as an excuse to hurt people.
Mac: Girl Mosh is super important to us. It keeps people safe. And we use the term ‘girl’ rather loosely.
Devon: (nods) Girl Mosh means ‘do you feel like you could identify as girl or femme or someone who is not usually welcomed in a mosh pit because of size or something else’.
Annie: ‘Have you ever felt unsafe in a mosh pit before? If so—’
All: This is your time.
The DC punk scene has a rich history of activism. How has being located there shaped the band?
Devon: It influences everything. We don’t like to do direct political commentary. I mean, obviously fuck Trump but I don’t think that’s a radical take anymore. It’s certainly not our most radical take.
Annie: Our most political song is either Concealer or Venomous but there’s undertones in most of if not all of our songs.
Devon: I will say, I think our music would sound this way regardless of if we’re based in DC or not. To do this in the capital, though, is very significant. For us to go on stage in DC makes me feel not so powerless, especially during times of political turmoil. It feels like I’m standing up and taking control instead of just posting online.
Kenzie: (nods) Yeah, you’re doing something about it.
Mac: It hits different for people with that added notion of where we are for sure.
Kenzie: As someone not from DC, it almost feels like boots on the ground journalism because you’re there, you’re in it.
Mac: No, it so does! I literally wrote the chorus to Concealer because I was so angry at my internship when I found out about Trump pulling back firearm restrictions on DV offenders. I was filled with so much rage at my cubicle, I pulled out my phone and dove right in.
Kenzie: That’s a great outlet. I think more people need to be mad and fueled by their own wrath.
Mac: Yes! There’s too much apathy. That’s a big part of the problem.
Annie: Growing up in Virginia, it was honestly very sheltered. I think living near DC has had some effect on my writing. I think I’d be writing about the same issues for sure, though. Like Venomous, for instance, I would’ve written that either way.
Mac: It’s an aggressive move on our parts to be doing and saying what we are while living in such proximity to the capital.
If someone comes to a show having never been to a punk or riot show before, what do you hope they leave feeling?
Devon: Baseline community and solidarity is always our goal.
Mac: I think for me in specific, I’m always hoping people feel more seen and understood. I also wonder what made people finally pull up to a show for the first time. I hope they find community.
Annie: I want people to feel safe. A punk show should be a space for healing. I think a lot of music spaces like this don’t have that anymore.
Kenzie: This genre gets a negative connotation. Lots of people think the shows are scary or violent.
Mac: Absolutely.
Devon: Find the right community and you’re set for life. It’s so hard to find the right part of the punk scene. Recently, someone came up to us at a show and they were telling us about how they just moved from Maine and they were so elated to finally find a solid punk, queer-friendly scene. I recommended that they go to Riot! DC. They did and ended up finding tons of friends and new bands. That’s what that’s all about. That’s what Mac N’ Toss is about!
Mac: We want to build a third space that’s safe for people who’ve experienced assault and abuse. It’s very hard to escape that dark stuff if you don’t have some semblance of community.
(left) What She Buried album art via Alisson Rosa (right) Mac N’ Toss via Julia WhiteWhat have you been listening to lately?
Mac: Babe Haven’s album Nuisance. It’s so good, I’ve been listening to it a lot more lately because our album takes some inspiration from the vocal tracking. I’ve also been listening to a lot of Violet Grohl, a small band called Trophy Wife, a small band called Cherry Picks, too.
Annie: Spiritbox and ULTRA SUNN. I don’t know how to describe them. They’re like 80s synth wave kind of vibes but modern. I’ve been listening to alot of Soccer Mommy, too.
Devon: I’ve been listening to a lot of Patti Smith. I listened to her before but I read her memoir for the first time and LOVED it. It reminded me why I like to create and make music and I re-listened to a bunch of her stuff after finishing the book. I did the same thing with Japanese Breakfast. I’ve also been listening to Fiona Apple.
Mac: Me too. And Die Spitz! A lot of Riot Grrrl stuff always.
Devon: Oh, I’ve been really into The Cranberries recently. Hayley Williams’ new solo album, too. I think it’s a great piece of work.
What about recent watches?
Mac: I don’t watch anything. I have no time to consume that kind of media. If I’m consuming anything, then it’s gonna be music.
Devon: You’ve been watching the world cup
Mac: That’s right! I have been watching the world cup lately because I played soccer.
Annie: I don’t watch many movies. I watch Youtube a lot. I like watching social commentary type of videos. I love watching Danielle’s Advocacy. She covers and calls attention to some important stuff.
Devon: It’s my time to shine…So, I just finished watching John Waters’ entire filmography. He did the original Hairspray. His films are queer and disgusting. Like, truly gross. I love his movies. I think it’s some of my favorite social commentary. If I had to recommend a movie of his, I’d say Polyester. It’s a great commentary on suburban nightmare fuel. Like ‘what if my kid started listening to punk rock?’ I also recently watched Forbidden Fruits. It’s my movie of the year so far. Fucking incredible. I’m also watching Twin Peaks right now.
What about favorite reads?
Devon: I really like Pride and Prejudice. I also love Ender’s Game — get your copy used, though. The author sucks.
Annie: I also read that and got it used. Found it in a box on campus.
Devon: I also really love Pirkko Saisio. She’s a Finnish author who wrote The Helsinki Trilogy and it was recently translated into English. It’s about growing up queer in post-World War II Finland. They’re fucking fantastic.
Mac: The only things I’ve read recently are feminist think pieces. I’m not a big fiction person.
Annie: There’s a couple books that come to mind. Rachel and Her Children is one of them for sure. It’s real life interviews with homeless people, I read it in college and it really stuck with me. I also genuinely love books about the mind and its development.
At what point did you think “wow, we might have something” with the band?
Mac: Ooh. I don’t know if I can pinpoint it. There’s been many small moments and that always makes me feel like we have something but that’s not really ‘making it’ in terms of the industry, it’s more so just a personal thing.
Annie: For me, the first time I had this feeling of ‘oh, this is happening’ was our first show at The Pocket. We played Rabid and I got this intense feeling of ‘this is just the beginning’.
Devon: I was supposed to start grad school this August but at some point last year I was like ‘I can’t, this is going too well’. That could be one. There’s a multitude of things but I think another big one was when we won a Wammie. It’s like the DC equivalent of a Grammy. It’s an industry-recognized award. We won Best Punk Song for 2024 and 2025. It gave us an air of legitimacy that has helped us tremendously in terms of reach and press. That’s when I was like ‘oh, we have something to show for this!’
Mac: Yeah, it was a good moment. I think Riot DC was one, too. It helped us build our community. That whole thing was crazy. The headlines made me feel like we were actually doing something.
Devon: Yeah, if my mom can share it on Facebook then it’s legit.
(They all laugh)
Describe What She Buried in three words.
Devon: That’s perfect because the album is three words (laughs). We struggled to pick a name but we landed on What She Buried because it evokes visuals. It’s also a reference to Rabid and our past experiences that have been traumatic albeit significant. So, yeah, ‘What She Buried’ is a solid three word description. In terms of sound? I’d say-
Annie: Vulnerable?
All: Yeah, for sure.
Devon: A bit off topic but one thing I love about the new album is that it is a 50/50 split between songs we wrote on our own and songs we wrote together. We brought in experiences we’ve had outside of and even prior to Mac N’ Toss. For each of us to be able to bring that together is the coolest thing ever. It’s a bridge between our old selves and new selves.
Mac: Yeah. Raw, vulnerable. It’s so visceral, too.
Annie: Rage? I don’t know.
Mac: It’s not all rage, though.
Annie: Good point.
Mac: Vulnerable, raw, and visceral. Final answer!
Did you learn anything about yourselves during the recording process?
Devon: So many silly things come to mind. (laughs)
Mac: During the recording of Concealer, a song I wrote about killing my abuser—
Devon: Which hasn’t happened, for the record.
Annie: Yet (laughs). I’m just kidding.
Mac: But in recording process, I got the idea to sample the evidence audio file of my screaming. It’s so in the background that you wouldn’t really pick up on it but it’s so cool to me. I never thought I’d be in a place where I take such an intense fear and anxiety of mine and I put it into a song to share with people experiencing similar things. It’s subtle but it means a lot.
Annie: We’ve talked about this before but we do understand that It runs the risk of triggering people though another way to look at it is ‘hey, you survived this to be able to do that’. It’s powerful.
Mac: I want people to feel seen and less alienated. I think this does that. It’s so beautiful.
Devon: I knew this about myself already but I think something everyone else learned about me is that if I am hungry? I won’t play good and I’ll be crabby. If I say ‘hey guys, I think we should go get lunch’ then I am soft launching that I’m about to be a bitch (all laugh).
Annie: Devon gets HANGRY. Oh! I also learned something when we recorded an acoustic version of Have You Ever Met a Boy? That week I played tambourine a LOT. Not just for Mac N’ Toss but for another band, too. I realized that I hate dancing but if I have a tambourine in my hand? I’m fine!
Devon: Have you ever met a tambourine? (all laugh)
What’s a hill you’ll die on when it comes to the music industry?
Devon: Mac is willing to die on every hill (all laugh and nod in agreement).
Mac: It’s true! Let me think.
Annie: Nickleback isn’t that bad.
Mac: No, I hear you on this! If we’re listening to kind of shitty pop-rock, then you’ve GOT to listen to Nickelback…I mean, I mentioned it earlier but if you’re playing bass then add some texture! Don’t play if you’re just doing root notes. Use all four of those strings, man! Once I get a 6 string bass? It’s OVER! One time a man told me bass playing wasn’t technical and I lost my mind.
Devon: First, if you’re gonna make music then you need to be doing it for a reason. It could simply be that you just love sound or manipulating sound but it needs to be something! Second, you need to take yourself seriously. I’m endlessly frustrated by this. It is not embarrassing to take yourself seriously, to market yourself, or to promote your music. Do it confidently, do it seriously, or you won’t succeed. I think about these a lot…also, all music is political. No argument about that.
Mac: Oh, also, I think artists should write for emotionality first and genre second. I think it makes for better, more well-rounded music. I can’t do the genre boxes. I think it dulls creative processes.
Devon: Oh, and albums—
Annie: They should be played in order!
Devon: Yes. I don’t particularly blame people for not listening in order but I do judge if an artist makes an album that’s not cohesive or telling a detailed, intricate story.
Annie: My last hill is…AI music is not music. If your ‘music’ has AI, then you’re not a musician. Oh, also, a ‘female fronted band’? Not a thing. Just call it a band.
What does this milestone mean to you?
Mac: So much.
Annie: The first thing that comes to mind for me is that we’ve worked so hard, period. That’s the biggest thing.
Devon: It’s proof of our hard work. I always wanted to release music when I was younger. I did a lot of singer/songwriter, folksy stuff in high school and I told my parents I was gonna do the whole 9-5 thing but my dream was to release music that would be enjoyable and relatable. I never thought it would happen, though. It was a far-fetched dream. I saw it as a hobby. Now, I’m like ‘Oh my god. We’re gonna have an album out there before I even turn 23’.
Does it feel real yet?
Mac: Oh, does it feel real!
Devon: For sure. I can feel it and it’s literally sound waves.
Mac: I didn’t think I was going to be a musician. I was always pushed more towards sports and I had to teach myself music then re-teach myself after the abuse. I mean, I didn’t even think I’d make it out alive and now I’m here! The journey of starting from nothing is a crazy feeling. I am so proud.
Any parting words?
Mac: Thank you so much! Go listen to What She Buried!
